1. BlindseerJB
   February 2nd, 2010 - 11:46

   Perhaps if he could be convinced to discreetly change his name and reapply. Or apply to your guild with another character. This could get him in the door without being judged on his name alone.

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2. juz
   February 2nd, 2010 - 11:58

   Alternatively, you could speak to his detractors separately and explain why you don’t immediately believe the naysaying. Perhaps he can come on a trial raid without getting the trial guild invite? You’d have to explain to him the reasons for the policy change. It’ll be a sign either way, since he’ll either be eager to prove his worth, or be offended, get emo, and give you a surefire reason to deny the app.

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3. Asara
   February 2nd, 2010 - 11:59

   Personally, I’d have probably given him a chance based on the first application. But after seeing the way he responded to you, I’d say thank you but no thank you. The application may have been mature and well-worded, but a truly mature person would have said, “yes, certainly, no problem” when you asked to discuss it after your raid was over. If he places more importance on what he needs to say than on your need to pay attention to your raid, odds are that behavior is going to carry over to other places.

   Maybe, if you’re still not sure, give him a trial run with some of the guildies that profess to dislike him so much. Make sure they’ve got him off ignore, and run something that’s not progression. Even an alt run, if you have to, so that the guildies who join you might still get something out of it. Odds are the only thing that will change their mind is firsthand experience, and there’s only one way to get that.

   Good luck!!
   Asara´s last blog ..Epic WoW Marathon! (plus news.)

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4. Carina
   February 2nd, 2010 - 13:37

   From his actions regarding the tell he sounds like a classic drama queen. He might be nice and genuinly person, who knows, but do you really want someone in your guild who assumes that he’s hated the second something happens he doesn’t agree with? What happens if someone doesn’t agree with him? Is he going to flounce with a hearty “you don’t like meeee?!”

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5. Light
   February 2nd, 2010 - 13:50

   I think there’s one on every server, correct?

   Unless he transfers off and transfers back people are going to be aware of him, even through a name change.

   He’s already tarnished his reputation. Even if he is a good guy, you will be tarnishing your guild by picking him up.

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6. Busket
   February 2nd, 2010 - 14:04

   People like that are almost never guys you want around, no matter how much a friend will vouch that really, he’s a decent sweet guy. Judging someone on how they treat their friends is absurd, everyone is nice(r) to their friends. If he’s got that much of a reputation, it’s almost certainly from trade chat, and just as certainly there’s a reason for it. It may be as simple as he doesn’t know when to shut up, but in my mind that’s a big enough flaw that you are justified in denying his app.

   If I wanted to give someone like that a chance, I’d offer them this deal: I catch you talking in /trade, you’re out. You’re allowed to conduct business of course, but if I get wind of you starting or responding to anything else, whether you started it or not, that’s it. He can take or leave it, depending on how mature he really is and how much he really wants to be in your guild.

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7. Shadan
   February 2nd, 2010 - 14:22

   We had a very similar thing happen to our guild. The backstory: a very good resto druid (would go as far as to call him amazing) who lacks interpersonal skills goes through a lot of server raiding guilds. He is abrasive and people like to make fun of him. He is easily provoked and responds, going into that vicious cycle thing you mentioned.

   Anyhow, the GM convinced him to name change, and invited him as a pug to ICC and ToC to run with us with his Vent being muted. Predictably, he topped meters (I know for healers this means squat but I am talking about more than 15% compared to the next holy priest) and played perfectly. People were excited. I was suspicious and after tracking achievements and wowprogress I figured it out.

   However, I actually agree with our GM. Give the guy a break. He is good, and as long as he can keep his mouth shut at the appropriate times, he will be ok. People deserve chances, and besides, if he is as bad as he is made out to be, you can always kick him afterwards.

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8. Rhii
   February 2nd, 2010 - 14:43

   The way he reacted to your being too busy to discuss things seems like a red flag to me. I’d be very very cautious.
   Rhii´s last blog ..Pulling in 5…4…3…

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9. Imalinata
   February 2nd, 2010 - 15:39

   We have a few “trade chat whores” in my guild and some have done and continue to do quite well while one other didn’t and was about to be kicked before he left.

   If he got his negative reputation because he reacts to the garbage in trade chat, then I can see why he kept sending you tells during your ICC10 raid. He might just be a reactive person.

   Since he’s already on the server, why not have him run with your guild for about a week without being tagged? We do that with people on our server sometimes so that we can make sure we have a few logs to judge their performance and weed out any overt problems before they’re tagged. Depending on the type of forums you use, you can set up a poll for members to vote on him and let majority rule.

   Making him change his name so he can pretend to be new to the server is just lying to your guild. It just makes the officers look bad especially when it comes out (and it would) that you knew all along.

   Just keep in mind that even if you give the guy a chance, it may take a month or so before he really begins to show his true colors in guild/raid chat. And depending on what those are, the officers may have to be more active in getting him to moderate his behavior so he doesn’t irritate the crap out of the rest of your guild. Also, be very explicit about what the guild expects from its members and that you will follow those policies. That way if he’s not a fit, he can’t claim that he didn’t know he was supposed to behave a certain way.

   If you need the guy, it could be worth a shot to see if he can fit in. But don’t try to make a square peg fit in a round hole, you’ll just risk losing existing members.

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10. The Renaissance Man
    February 2nd, 2010 - 16:49

    I can’t tell you exactly what to do. I don’t know enough about the situation. I can tell you this though. I’ve taken chances on a lot of controversial guild apps. Some have paid off, I’ve had to pull the plug on others. However, I can tell you this: despite the threats to leave from some guild members, no one left, aside from a few social members.

    The key is to impress upon your guild members not that he’ll succeed. You can’t promise that. What you can promise, however, is that you’ll maintain control on the situation. That if he doesn’t succeed, given a fair opportunity, you’re willing to pull the plug on him.
    The Renaissance Man´s last blog ..Leading Icecrown Citadel: Lady Deathwhisper

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11. Prophet
    February 2nd, 2010 - 18:13

    In all honesty, I would have given him a chance. I, myself, had a rather negative reputation on my server. I am fairly reactive and tend to lack tack at the appropriate times and that annoys the shit out of people. I’m also very much outspoken, and I tend to try to help people as soon as I see a problem. Not exactly ‘omg healer, learn to heal’ but more like ‘Hey, healer, I see you keep letting Beacon drop – you can set up Grid or MSBT to alert you when it’s about to drop’ just because I’m usually very aware of things like that. Sometimes it comes off as bossy, which I admit – I am a rather bossy person, but I also try to be kind.
    One of my friends (who has a rather negative reputation himself for being outspoken but less kind) was getting trashed in trade chat, and I stood up for him. I spent probably twenty minutes arguing with the top guild on our server about this guy, defending him, having various insults thrown my way, etc. In the end this guild went out of their way to destroy me on my old server. I logged on, it started, and people just started to assume I was what they were saying, which wasn’t entirely true.
    Given this guy is fairly reactive so it seems (I was picked on a lot, too, and I have a hard time with the ‘omg ignore it’ bit), I can see where he is coming from. While you did tell him that you were raiding, I can see why he got pushy – he probably thought you were blowing him off and not going to get back to him. People with bad reputations tend to be rather paranoid, especially when it comes to applying to a guild. When they get denied, they probably think it’s due to their reputation, moreso since you LIKED his application and seemed to initially deny him solely based on others’ opinions, which isn’t fair to him.

    They also couldn’t tell you WHY they felt that way, which leads me to believe they are simply going by stories they’ve heard and don’t even know the guy. It’s true that people are nicer to their friends, but friends tend to be the ones that knows more, too. One of his explained he gets a lot of crap from trade. While most may be able to sit and ignore it, some fight back, perhaps to make it worse accidentally, but does that make him such a bad person?

    Wow, this was long, heh – I have a lot to say about this topic. To cut it short, I’d give him a chance, because you cannot simply believe everything others say. Afterall, if he does turn out to be a dickhat, just gkick him. And if he doesn’t? Apparently you need a warlock, and there ya go. Problem solved.

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12. Zahrah
    February 2nd, 2010 - 19:23

    I got in a random group someone from my home server who has a bad reputation – I had never run anything with him, and so could never understand why people disliked him so – but the run made all the reasons clear why he deserved to be so disliked. Sometimes popular opinon applys – but I think you should give him a chance to prove himself. At least then you will know. You will have been the better person for not denying him based on a popularity contest, and it will give him a chance to show what sort of guy he is Trial him – Explain why – he has to know his own reputation.
    Zahrah´s last blog ..A Single Gender Guild

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13. Anea
    February 2nd, 2010 - 19:44

    My first instinct would have been yours – not to invite him. If the community and cohesion of the guild is what you value, then inviting him will make many people unhappy and probably undo the balance and happiness that everyone has.

    True, there may be people that can see the “good” part of him and perhaps he IS a decent guy… but the one time that you had direct contact with him, he picked an argument when you were in a raid (first sign) but didn’t let it go when you told him you were busy (second sign) and emo’d out (third sign).

    I would think that if you wanted to make a good impression on a raiding guild (to the guild leader, nonetheless) you would respect raid time and know that you shouldn’t interrupt – what does interrupting that show? Whenever I’ve wanted to talk to guild leaders of potential guilds (back when I was searching for raiding guilds for Lus and I) I would always try to catch a guild leader before or after a raid and if I did need to get their attention to let them know I’d like to chat, it would be one tell and then I left them alone.

    Plus, someone did bring up your guild’s reputation. Even if he manages to be decent within the guild, his behavior outside the guild (especially if he’s a Trade Troller) will certainly put your guild in a bad light.

    I think you did right by not inviting him.
    Anea´s last blog ..Fun – the game has it!

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14. latusthegoat
    February 2nd, 2010 - 23:26

    Carina nailed it with the 3rd or 4th comment here. He’s a dramallama. If he hounds you for 2 hours because his application was denied AND after you’ve asked him to discuss it later… imagine if he actually was in the guild and felt entitled to things.

    Like, say, an item that was given to lower dps.

    Yes, I’m judging 100% without knowing him, but going by your story I think it’s an accurate judgement.

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15. Hulan
    February 3rd, 2010 - 02:29

    I’m torn over this. My first rection is to not invite him based on your “interview”. As others have pointed out he should have waited when you told him you were busy in a raid, that he didn’t indicates self-centred and immature. On the other hand my daughter has ADHD (and I’m not saying he has) and behaves in a very similar way. She is extremely outspoken, she is very easily provoked, when she has a bee in her bonnet abut something she will go at it until it’s resolved and she is very bad at reading signals from other people no matter how obvious those signals may seem to the rest of us. On the good side she is a sunny cheerful person who doesn’t sulk and is often baffled by other people’s reactions to her and is eager to please and fit in. She is an easy target for bullies who know that they can easily wind her up.

    My head says don’t invite him, my heart says the opposite

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16. Lifedeathsoul
    February 3rd, 2010 - 02:33

    well…. If it was me, I’ll go on a couple of heroic trial runs with him first. swap leader post with him sometimes in the dungeon. Just use the random heroic tool for help

    Then observe him carefully. Watch out for taunts, abuse and more importantly his communication skills as well. But…. the way he talked to you and tries to get hold of your attention? That is a red flag to me as well, and I’ve got a pretty tolerant attitude to such behavior…

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17. Fricassee
    February 3rd, 2010 - 07:22

    Usually people like that have bounced around from raiding guild to raiding guild. If he’s been in a number of raiding guilds, how much could your guild get tarnished if others have had him?

    Also, if he has been in other guilds, I would ping the GLs of those guilds on how he came to join, and more importantly leave.

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18. gravity
    February 3rd, 2010 - 14:28

    I would not recruit them, I wouldn’t even look into it any further. His behaviour in that incident with you would not be a one-off.
    He might have a disorder of which he’s unaware.

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19. Typeronin
    February 5th, 2010 - 09:42

    I had a similar issue back at the end of Malygos or so progression and heading into Ulduar. We recruited a priest that was known as “that girl” on the server. You know what I’m talking about.

    After running a heroic with her with pretty much four DPS trying to agro as much as possible and switching agro as much as possible and giving nearly no time to drink or rest, we were actually quite impressed. She was a good player. We gave her the benefit of the doubt and gave her a trial that she eventually passed. She became a core healer in the guild. I gave her important jobs that she did well (despite somewhat of an awareness issue. She could never dodge those Mimiron rockets…) and we eventually trusted her enough to give her Valy’nir since our priest officer didn’t want it.

    Along the way, I had to talk to her several times about trolling trade or making trouble on the realm forums and such but nothing serious. However, we learned the hard way that people don’t really seriously change. She blew up on the guild during a Yogg run and took one of our other core raiders with her. Allowing her in the guild was one of the worst decisions I’ve made as leadership. Along the way, we’ve actually learned that several people who wanted to app to our guild were deterred because she was in it.

    Trust your instincts. No one is hated by an entire server if they didn’t do something to deserve it. I mean, I’ve been quite a jerk to a lot of people during my time in game and on the forums (ask Elam!)…and even I don’t have that reputation.
    Typeronin´s last blog ..Blood Elf Dudes Are Fruity Enough

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