Altadin
11Dec/0922

More 10-man drama and a possible epiphany.

I've cried over WoW before.

I cried the first time I was kicked out of a PuG (for failing to banish the elemental adds on the first boss in Steam Vaults).  (Once upon a time, I had no idea what a /focus macro was.)  I cried when I missed my guild's first Naxx 10 raid because I was still leveling through Zul'Drak.  I cried three weeks later when I benched myself from our first post-Patchwerk Naxx 25 after consistently failing to make the Thaddius jump (which I still can't do without a Slowfall, Levitate, Swiftness Potion or Dash).  I cried when L. threatened to leave the guild, and again when he actually did.

... But last night?  Last night was the first time I actually cried on open Vent — revealing to my entire guild (or, rather, to the 12 or so who were online and in my Vent channel) what a basketcase I really am.

It was the usual 10-man drama that did it. 

Finals crit our Thursday night raid, as those players who cheated on their study groups to make our first forays into Icecrown Citadel possible earlier in the week bowed out of Trial of the Grand Crusader last night.  (Which was fine!  I've already threatened to kick anyone who drops out of college or vet school for something as frivolous as "saving the world."  :p).  After a quick pre-raid conference in /officer chat, we decided to fill the rather glaring holes in our roster from our Friends & Family and Member ranks: essentially "re-trialing" players who aren't a part of the core raid, but who have been dilligently working to improve their gear and performance in an effort to join it. 

It was kind of a disaster. 

Raid DPS was slow — we had several people under 5K who shouldn't have been under 5K (and weren't in Ulduar, so I really have no idea what happened there ...) — so far from experiencing the usual downtime between phases, we found ourselves finishing Gormok after the twin jormungers spawned and still struggling with Dreadscale (including once at more than 40% health!), when Icehowl crashed the raid.  Our best attempt of the night ended with no less than four players eating two separate tramples, sending Icehowl into one frothing rage after another.

After an hour of this, we decided it was just one of Those Nights® and called the raid early.  There was some talk in raid chat of forming two ICC 10-mans, but Keaton and I were feeling a little down about the failed ToGC 25 and didn't jump on that right away.  We were actually discussing what went wrong — and how to fix it for next week — when another officer invited us to an impromptu ICC 10.  That's when the drama started.

Rather than rehash it all again, I'm just going to quote my explanation to Tahas.  (Sweet southern gentleman that he is, he e-mailed me at work this morning to make sure that I was okay.  <3).

Both sides were angry and laying on the guilt: the group that ninja-invited me to their 10-man — the "I don't see why we aren't allowed to play with our friends; why should we have to organize everything for everyone all the time?!" side — and those who were left out — the "WTF?!  Why are you saving all of the guild's tanks1 to one group instead of trying to create two so we can all go?!" side.  Under the pressure, I just kind of ... broke.    
 
Korev and Keaton took over splitting the group after I started sobbing on Vent, and in the end handled it much more gracefully than I did.  I didn't want to go with the first group, exactly — I think forming an open-secret-elitist-10-man so soon after calling the 25-man raid was in poor taste — but I was also frustrated at being made to feel like a Horrible Evil Person for (1) something I didn't intiate in the first place! and (2) wanting to play with my friends instead of carrying people who ... although not undergeared2, per se, just aren't performing at the level that my usual group does.  I mean, we made it through okay (minus some stupid wipes due to inattention), but we had an alt tank, one more healer than we needed, a stupid group composition (three shamans in one group and none in the other?) and the three lowest DPS in the guild.

Anyway, it worked out in the end and I'm glad we made the effort to include more people.  I just wish I wasn't somehow responsible for making everyone happy all of the time.  It's too much.
 
On the plus side, as soon as I started sniffling, Korev went into super-protective mode.  For all that he was part of the problem to begin with, it was nice to hear him threaten to slit the throats of whoever made me cry.  (I'm such a girl sometimes.) 

I realized this morning, as I was dwelling on last night's drama (which I handled very poorly, first by shutting down, and then by snipping at people who trusted me to empathize with them rather than make them feel worse), that the only way to finally put this recurring issue to rest is to hold my 25-man raid to the same performance standards exemplified by my 10-man. 

One of the reasons that the 25-man raid trails behind the 10-man in progression is me.  I often hesitate at delivering constructive criticism — those who need it the most will inevitably hone in on the criticism rather than the construction — and seldom remove underperforming players from the raid once it's underway.  I've also been reluctant to recruit ranged DPS to balance our melee-heavy roster or trial new applicants because I have a long list of would-be raiders in the guild already, and want to give them the time and the opportunity to step up.  The problem with this is that while it's nice, it isn't necessarily prudent: several of those would-be raiders are would-be for a reason: they aren't ready for, or — in some cases, I suspect — capable of, progression raiding.

In other words, I'm trying too hard to be nice, and not hard enough to be smart.  I need to fix that — especially since the ensuing frustration makes me not nice at all. 

The Renaissance Man made a comment over on Shaman on Ramen about how very different my portrait of Surreality is from Elam's.  Don't get me wrong: Surreality isn't in a bad place.  But I think we could be in a better one.  I think if my 25-man raid was doing as well as my 10-man, then 10-mans in general would feel less important and therefore less devisive to the guild-at-large. 

Or I could just be crazy.  I still feel kind of crazy, but at least the waterworks are over.

___

  1. I should mention that at this point, we only have two main-spec tanks.  Our two off-spec tanks are among the guild's best melee DPS and were invited as DPS the first 10-man group.  The pressure that our members often place upon them to tank off-night content is unfair, especially given the number of ToC-geared alt tanks we have in-guild, any one of whom would love the opportunity to MT a 10-man. ↩
  2. We tend to use "undergeared" as a euphemism for "bad."  I've made a conscious effort to stop excusing underperformance as result of poor gear, since the truth is most of those we consider "undergeared" for ToC have better gear than we did when we started it.  Nine times out of ten, it's a skill issue, an attention/situational awareness issue, or an experience issue.  Calling it a "gear issue" when it isn't pre-empts improvement. ↩

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Comments (22) Trackbacks (1)
  1. Timothy Burgher
    December 11th, 2009 - 12:27

    I haven’t cried yet about the game but I certainly have had some feelings that could lead to that emotion. I’ve noticed as I’m getting older though it’s easier to just to express these feelings as anger instead of crying. I guess i’m just a normal dude. What’s nice about WoW is I can take my finger off the push to talk key and no one knows the difference.

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    • Elleiras
      December 11th, 2009 - 13:50

      It’s not like I was sobbing into the microphone or anything! But I did have to talk to resolve the issue and I’m sure the guys could tell I was crying.

      But, yes. Channeling tears of frustration into RRRRRAAAAAGGGEEEE sounds good to me. I’ll work on channeling my inner man. It totally worked for Mulan. :D

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  2. Tahas
    December 11th, 2009 - 12:36

    I do have a point of order. That fucking jump SHOULD drop badges.

    That is all.
    Tahas´s last blog ..Rawr! was updated

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  3. Elam
    December 11th, 2009 - 13:21

    As the person who actually made you cry, I think I need to apologize for the 825236th time. So, I’m sorry!

    As you know now, though, my annoyance had nothing to do with your ten man group forming– afaik, I’ve been pretty quiet about things. For the most part. My problem was with a certain person’s attitude in forming the group (as well as his attitude in the 25 ToGC prior to it), and not with you or anyone else in it. :P

    As for the 25 man comment- I think that’s a great idea. People make stupid mistakes, such as standing in Mimiron’s lazers 8 months after Ulduar is released, but that’s a mistake that happens only once. If someone is consistently under performing, they need to be told. :s I also think we need to be better at uploading to World of Logs for every raid, so that we have a way to actually record these things! :P (That, and my Fire Elemental doesn’t show up on recount for anyone but me. So while you might have seen me at 7-8k on Deathbringer, I saw me as 8-9! How rude! It does show up on WOL though!)
    Elam´s last blog ..HERE IS WHERE I VICTORY

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    • Elleiras
      December 11th, 2009 - 13:43

      To be fair, it wasn’t what you said or did so much as what you represented. :( I know the 10-mans cause tension, but I’ve always been able to side with those who say “Hey, it’s our time. We show up and deliver on every 25-man raid, even when we’re thrwarted by those who don’t. Let us run 10’s our way with our friends on our time.”

      But last night, it wasn’t “our” time. It was official raid time, and there were quite a few people online — you, Ogram, Liseria, Nofears, Forrest — who give just as much in 25’s and could have formed the backbone of a second team. So, you had every right to be mad. But so did that certain other person, because as frustrating as his attitude was in ToGC25, he did have a point about 10’s.

      So, basically, I was in a really uncomfortable position — agreeing with both sides in principle, but being torn between them in practice. You were saying you weren’t mad at me and it wasn’t my fault, and he was saying the exact. same. thing., so … I think I was kind of a stand in for both of you for the other. :P Him, I’m used to. But you’re one of my best friends, irl or in-game, so I took it a lot harder (even though I know it wasn’t your intention at all!). The snipping in /gchat on one side and in /raid chat on the other didn’t help either, and … did I mention I hate having to choose who to disappoint? D:

      Also, speaking of elementals: Is Percy — I mean, the hitherto unnamed water elemental — still hitherto unnamed? I want to see a picture of you and Edward Cullen. :D

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      • Elam
        December 11th, 2009 - 16:20

        Yea, and that really was my issue. As I think I mentioned last night, if you guys went and ran 10 ICC Sunday night, no one would have had a right to be mad. But after 5 attempts on a boss that we have on farm (technically) that we were getting progressively closer to killing, we called the raid and 10 people went off and started a ten man without saying anything. There wasn’t even a “We’re going to go do tens, we won’t set up another but let’s talk about allocating players.” It was just silence on his end.

        But, you’ve said all of this already, so you know exactly how I’m feeling about it, so I’m going to let it drop. xD

        As for the water elemental-the lights in the upstairs of my house all blew out due to some weird electricity thing, and I don’t feel like trying to maneuver a cardboard cutout of Edward Cullen down a flight of stairs while my parents are home. xD Sometime soon, I promise!
        Elam´s last blog ..HERE IS WHERE I VICTORY

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      • Bob2
        December 12th, 2009 - 21:47

        Percy??? I am assuming that you are referring to Kelvin.

        -Bob2

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  4. Bob2
    December 11th, 2009 - 13:43

    *Sigh* this is what I get for focusing on my school work for a night, stupid histology is causing issues with my guild. Nerf vet school IMHO.

    -Bob2

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  5. Ophelie
    December 11th, 2009 - 14:05

    The balance between the needs of the raiders and the needs of the raid is always a difficult one. And the balance between trying to please everyone and preserving your sanity is an even harder one!

    As for crying on vent – I remember one raid I was leading some time back, a 10 man, we were wiping on Faction Champs, over and over and over. No matter how I twinked our strategy or forced people to swap out, it just wasn’t working. I was so frustrated. I’ve lost it before in raids, but never like that. I was crying so hard I couldn’t even talk enough to call the raid, I had to whisper someone else to do it.

    I think we all have our limits and express them in our own way. They’re nothing to be ashamed of. The important thing is to remember where they are and to figure out when to push past them and when to respect them.
    Ophelie´s last blog ..Icecrown Citadel: W00T!

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  6. Naithin
    December 12th, 2009 - 03:29

    Aww, Sari. *hug*

    I’m sorry to hear these have been so troublesome still. I was hoping — perhaps uncharacteristically rather optimistically — that with the huge oversubscription to the 25 mans of late, that the blocks would all fall into places to make a second 10m group click into place.

    I’m sad to hear it has not, and sadder still that it has hurt you again. I can definitely see how you could be so torn on the issue as well; just reading it I can find myself agreeing with both sides. Overall I think you called it correctly in that the difference here was the fact that it was indeed guild time, rather than, well, any other time. In that circumstance, I lean towards the latter groups thinking. At any other time, I completely agree that you should be able to play as ye wish.

    As an aside; I also owe you something of an apology. Last plans I gave you (and the guild in general) said I’d be all yours from Nov 14th onwards. Obviously, sitting here at Dec 12th, that didn’t really happen. The apology though is mostly for not keeping in better contact with at least you and let you know what was going on. So, I’m sorry for that. Especially since it seems if I’d been around more, there would have been another tank available, and perhaps reduced some of the stress in that regard.

    Now, as to the belatedly actually fillin’ ye in! :)

    When I said I’d be all yers Nov 14th, I meant it. However, what I didn’t count on was that daylight savings shift we had at both sides of the globe, which meant that I was having to pickup my boy, oh, well, you know.. Right on raid start time. :P

    Then I figured I wasn’t needed at the moment anyway, given the mega recruitment drive and oversubscription of the raids you had anyway (which I was happy with, I might add. Happy that things were working out for everyone, and it took some of the sting of the timing issues off, and some of the sting of…

    …Coming to a point of true burnout. Sort of. I think rather than burn out of the game though, it was just moreso a sadness about not being able to participate to a real degree due to the timing issues, and also at that time study and exam committments, etc, etc. From there, was a short hop, skip and a jump to being rather ‘over’ the game.

    Now, recently, I thought I was truly over it all, ready to move on to writing and other things (Oh hey, I forgot NaNo in there as well, gosh. Lot goin’ on). I even posted to that effect, finally convinced I was done.

    What I should have remembered? Yeah.. I’ve ‘quit’ WoW at least half a dozen times over the altogether too many years I’ve been playing it. Sure enough, the twin lure of 3.3 niftyness and the pull of friends to return has sung a siren song too strong to resist.

    So I’ll be back. And able to raid from Wednesday (US time) onwards, at practically any time save for Friday/Saturday (US time).

    To be clear on that though, I completely realise that even if I had been on member/raider status rather than just F&F that such a return (and leaving style) would not do me any favours in actually getting a raid spot. I don’t expect anything of the kind, and agree that those who have been consistent and reliable and able to show up time and time again should have the spots. Just sayin’, after Wed, will be able to turn up if I’m needed without having to leave midraid or as it begins to pick son up or any other such thing. :)

    Also? If the needs have changed, if tree is no longer what you need, the warrior (as tank) is on offer as well. If all is full, I’ll still be around to help on off nights as required, tank through heroics (although with the new (and awesome) random system, this is probably less of an issue now?) and off-10m-groups as required.

    Anyway, long comment is long. In bullet point/list format:
    1) *Hug*
    2) Sorry
    3) Quitting WoW is hard; so I’m coming back soon.
    Naithin´s last blog ..Contemplation, Changes and Progress

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  7. Typeronin
    December 13th, 2009 - 11:17

    Sorry to talk about something that isn’t quite on topic…but I just wanted to ask a question. I’ve been a guild officer/leader for my entire time playing this game (vanilla…quit for BC…came back in WotLK) so I can certainly understand the guild drama. I’ve dealt with more than my fair share.

    What I wanted to ask was…how do you maintain an extensive bench? From what you’re saying…it sounds like you at least have enough people as F&F and non-raiders to make up for when some of your regulars need an off-night. My guild has been behind on progression lately as ToC was so terrible as content that some of our members took a break and we haven’t had the people or recruits to make up the raid most nights. That is pretty much what is holding us back. Our core 15 or so are amazing and probably as good as anyone playing this game. We killed the first two bosses in TotGC with 20-21 people more than once so I would KILL for a deep bench to rely on. Heck, I haven’t missed a raid day in months due to our short numbers even though I could use a week or so to just…not play.

    How do you keep non-raiders happy? I imagine that anyone good enough to play and be part of a heroic raid wouldn’t be happy just standing by and waiting to get into a raid. They’re either regularly rotated in or they probably go where they get regular playing time.

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  8. Rosaly
    December 14th, 2009 - 12:48

    Yknow i’ve always figured since wrath that 25 mans are something you do as a guild and 10 mans you do on your own spare time, if you even want to bother with it (I certainly don’t beyond seeing a new instance for the first week or two). It’s nice if the guild tries to include everyone but creating two groups to fit in underperforming players should really be an “above and beyond” thing and not an obligation to you guys.

    Don’t be overly nice either =). The guild I did naxx/ulduar in as alliance had a really drill sergeant leader, and it ended up being both hilarious and got people to do what they were supposed to. After wipes he would yell “NEXT PULL IN 2 MINUTES 28 SECONDS. I HAVE MY STOPWATCH OUT, IF YOU’RE NOT HERE YOU’RE BEING REPLACED”, and he would point out specific mistakes that people were making over and over and threatened to replace them. He also threatened to replace people if they didn’t watch the videos he sent to all of our accounts on the website (and we -had- to use the website to sign up for raids and get loot credit). He rarely actually acted on it, but it sure got people to get their act together.

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  9. Rosaly
    December 14th, 2009 - 12:59

    And as for would-be raiders… I’m not trying to sound elitist but this game is really not very hard. If gear isn’t an issue (and gear is easy these days too), then no raid encounter should take more than a couple of attempts to get the hang of if the rest of the guild can already do it and is there to guide them. I’m also not aware of any spec aside from feral druids that have anything close to resembling a complicated DPS rotation, so the people who are really underperforming in that sense probably just need to do some research on spell priorities/stat allocation or reading their skills and using some common sense or bind their keys properly. I make stupid mistakes too but for the people who don’t ever learn fight mechanics… our guild has a certain basic bar of competence and sad to say that if people can’t meet it, they probably just aren’t cut out for it.

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  10. Rosaly
    December 14th, 2009 - 13:04

    Also, how did I not know about this blog before? Lol, I found out from setekh. (Yes, I know that (*$&*(&#$ irl, please don’t hold it against me.)

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  11. X
    December 14th, 2009 - 23:34

    Just be grateful you don’t have to tank next to me EVERY week :P

    I think I need practice.
    Or to stay dps haha

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  12. Morrighan
    December 20th, 2009 - 06:32

    Hugs Larissyn. I saw a lot of this problem in my last guild. In the end, I quit being an officer there largely over this.

    If the GM set up a 10 man run on an off night people would get pissed off at not being included. This resulted in me ending up running another group. However, that group ended up being peopled with whiners, not with people I actually wanted to raid with. It made me miserable.

    Then, because I led 10 mans, the whispers started. One day I logged on and go asked to make a 10 man raid to three different places by three different people. None of them wanted to hear ‘no, I just came on to do my daily’.

    In the end I quit being an officer and stopped doing 10 mans for quite some time. The only 10 man group I was at the end was our Ulduar 10 drake group. This was made up from a select group for which the primary requirement was ‘doesn’t whine!’

    Now I’ve quit the guild and am helping start up a new one. We’ve decided to make the 10 man groups our base. I’m not sure I know the answer to 10 mans in a 25 man group, so I’m mainly here to post with some sympathy. Its not just you and its not just your guild. Its a common problem. The best I can suggest is to a) make sure that not all 10 man groups have to be led by officers. And by make sure I mean make sure the guild understands that as an ethos. This is too much pressure on the officer team IMO. Find some good solid raiders and get them involved in setting up some runs. And b) make sure its clear that the 10 mans are about raiding with friends. From reading your blog, my guess is that your 10 man group evolved over time with people you love raiding with. If theres another group in your guild that could do it, encourage them to do the same and set up a friendly 10 man.

    And finally, you can’t be all things to all people. You aren’t going to make everyone happy. Thats what I learned from being an officer in 2x 25 man raiding guilds over the past year and a half. In the end, I decided that the people you want to keep happy are the people who make raiding fun. That one loot whore, that one whiner? I don’t care about making them happy any more. In fact, they wouldn’t pass a trial in my new guild. Making that person happy is too much work and ultimately impossible. They will never be happy. If you pass them some gear, they need more, they want Shadowmourne. If you help them out and raid once with them, they wan’t more raids, they want in on every raid. The more you give, the more they want. Sounds a bit cynical I know, but they suffer from what I call NPCism. They don’t see you the person, they see computer characters there to give them what they want. They are incapably of empathy with other players in the game.

    And its ok to get upset sometimes :) . Maybe that will jog someone into remembering there are human beings behind those characters. Its also a sign that you’ve reached a breaking point, and something has to change.

    Dunno if any of that helps. As I mentioned, I’m a bit cynical at times. But hopefully it will.

    Morrighan
    Morrighan´s last blog ..ICC Lower Spire (10 and 25 Normal) Crib Sheet

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