25 divided by 10.
Surreality is a 25-man raiding guild. Period. Dot.
... and yet there is a relatively small group of us who have been running 10-man content on offnights since the era of Zul'Aman bear runs. Several of us have changed mains since then, and a few have dropped out and been replaced, but the heart of the group remains the same: Keaton (druid), Coffer (warrior) and Ouchilicious (DK) trade tanking duties, while Korev (paladin), Annah (priest) and I heal. Our DPS typically consists of Ignus (rogue), Neville (mage), the Superforsaken Azargoth (warlock) and Moar (lolret), with one wildcard spot open for the best available DPS from /guild. Sometimes it's Elam; more often, we give the nod to group composition and choose someone who buffs our casters — a critchicken or elemental shaman — or a hunter, which was the case last night.
The five or six of us who were in the team's first incarnation spent two full months racing the timers in Zul'Aman before we saw our first Amani War Bear. Our first few attempts were awful. We'd full-cleared ZA in the past, of course, and considered Zuljin more or less on "farm" — but when it came to the timed events, we despaired of ever rescuing that third prisoner, let alone the fourth. Still, we kept at it, and eventually learned to play to our strengths: running three tanks instead of the usual two, which effectively eliminated downtime by allowing us to chain pull the entire instance. Five months and thousands of gold in repairs later, all ten members of our team had bear mounts and we were able to start farming them for other members of our guild.
We retired ZA the week 3.0 came out and remained on hiatus through the first few months of Wrath, since some of us were faster to 80 than others. Those who made it level cap first started a new 10-man team, and those who took a little longer formed a second. Eventually, the guild's interest in Naxx10 waned, and our original group reformed with an eye towards clearing some the early endgame's de facto hard modes. We struggled with The Undying, and came within a few harrowing percent of the achievement on two separate occasions before finally managing a flawless clear. Obsidian Sanctum was an even bigger challenge for us, but after a solid month of attempts, we eventually defeated Sartharion with all three Twilight Drakes active. Glory of the Raider was ours!
With 3.1 came a new challenge. We hit Ulduar hard and fast: for a while, we were ranked Horde-side third in terms of 10-man progression. Eventually, the pressure of running concurrent 10 and 25 man raids took its toll, and we stopped attempting 10-man hard modes consistently. It wasn't until two weeks ago that we went back to Ulduar to finish Glory of the Raider, v2.0, and two nights ago that I finally bullied the guys into a second go-round with Algalon. (He trounced us — which means they're determined to see him down now, whereas before they simply didn't care. Needless to say, this was my plan all along!)
We have also been working dilligently on Trial of the Grand Crusader. Last night, we defeated Anub'arak with 49 attempts remaining. If it hadn't been for an unfortunate lag spike, which caused four of our raiders — including our off-tank — to freeze in place for about 10 seconds at the beginning of Phase 3, we would have achieved Tribute to Insanity.
All in all, we've been very successful. We have also become close — rather like a family, insofar that we laugh and joke and occasionally fight amongst ourselves, but always work through the issues and emerge stronger as a result.
I'm marrying one member of my 10-man team, and at least four of the others are planning to be there. It's an awesome group, in game and out, and I feel privileged to be a part of it.
The catch (there's always a catch!) is that only 10 players at a time can be part of it — a fact that doesn't always sit well with my 25-man raiding guild. My 10-man team has been a source of intermittent tension since late TBC. To those who are in it, it represents an opportunity to play with friends outside of the more regimented 25-man raid environment. To those who aren't, it feels exclusive and cliquish.
I can see both sides.
On one side, you have nine people who have been playing together for over a year and have bonds that transcend the game, including two pairs of real life friends and one real life couple. We are committed to each other and invested in the group as a whole. We have spent countless hours /played wiping on new content — collaborating on, strategizing about and eventually overcoming shared challenges. Most of us are guild officers; all of us are active in leading 25-man raids. We put in a ton of time, effort and real money supporting the guild as a whole ... so why shouldn't we be able to raid together on offnights? Why should we feel guilty for refusing to split up to relearn content we've come close to mastering on our own for the benefit of others (many of whom weren't interested in hard modes until we started spamming /guild chat with achievements)?
If we chose to spend offnights doing things in real life, no one would begrudge us the time away from the guild. But because we spend our free time together online, our members feel entitled to participate and are often resentful when we aren't willing or able to accommodate them.
On the other side, we are all members of the same guild, working towards the same overarching goal: 25-man progression. Our team monopolizes the guild's three main-spec tanks as well as its best off-spec tank , which forces others to enlist alts or PuG in order to fill a 10-man group. If we were willing to split up, or — even better! — take an active role in organizing multiple ToGC teams, then more of our members who have the opportunity to gear up and practice hardmodes outside of a less forgiving 25-man raid environment.
The issue is further complicated for me, personally, because I have good friends who are in the guild but not in my 10-man team. As committed as I am to our little group of nine-plus-one, I am also deeply invested in the guild as a whole. Surreality is my creation and I feel responsible for everyone who clicks "Accept" to my /ginvite — from the Friends & Family who will in all likelihood never raid, to the casual Members who fly in circles around Icecrown hoping for an opportunity to sub in, to the Raiders I count among our core.
So, yes, I can see both sides. It's reconciling them that has always been the challenge.
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November 3rd, 2009 - 12:06
I wanna be one of the cool kids! /cry
(Said with an obviously coy smirk…)
Seriously, from my own perspective, I think you do a fine job of inclusion. I was included (to my surprised delight) for a few cracks at One Light a few weeks ago (albeit VERY late evening). Then again, I’m not always around a lot on off-nights (as evidenced by my inability to commit firmly to this past weekend’s One Light expedition), so I don’t really have the opportunity to feel excluded. Besides, I’ve been /blinders with the Affliction warlock the last three weekends (level 52 already – I loves heirlooms). I remember leveling to 50 with relative ease a year and half ago – but damn, it wasn’t THIS easy (read: ZERO downtime, after chain pulling 6-10 mobs). I’m straying OT…
*cough*
You spoke of monopolizing the tanks. Well, isn’t that part of why dual-specs were a wonderful addition? Throughout Naxx and into Ulduar, my typical week was Retribution for 25-man progression, but tanking the “optional” late-night 10-man runs (then went exclusively Holy in a hardcore guild). (For those unfamiliar – Forreststump is effectively my main NOW, after joining Surreality. Previously, my main with 125+ days invested was a Paladin with raid experience in all roles)
BDF is a PvP server, so I expect that a lot of “offspecs” are actually people’s PvP specs, rather than a secondary PvE spec (which was the case on my paladin on a PvE-RP server), which doesn’t help the tank availability question. There are also alts that can step in (especially by those people who log more game time than others).
I think the “organizing multiple ToGC teams” will be the way forward. If you schedule it, they will come (apologies to Kevin Costner). I hope. As for me – I will have to rely upon chance that an open spot exists at raid time – or that “She” is out of the house for an extended period LOL.
November 3rd, 2009 - 13:05
The problem with this forrest is that the guild has very few off-spec tanks with the gear to actually run the heroic 10 mans. Being a fury/fury dual spec warrior maybe im part of the problem, but as far as actually getting the tanks for 10 man runs it is exceptionally difficult (I will admit i am not speaking from recent experience more like 2-4 months ago experience but back then finding a non-saved tank in our guild who wanted to run 10 man uld was like finding the time-lost proto drake in storm peaks).
However i also seen both sides of this story, in the past I was one of the players semi-frequently taking that 10th spot and it was always a blast to run with you guys and it really isn’t fair to you guys for the guild to ask to break up your 10-man so that a second 10-man can be formed. However even being unfair, that eventuality would have some positive effects on the guild as a whole.
So i guess what I am trying to say is that I have no friggin clue what the solution of this dilemma is, however if a second 10 man does start up count me in =P
Bob2
November 3rd, 2009 - 13:07
Larissyn definitely has the gear to tank 10man ToGC. I’m not sure that I, personally, have the skill — but I’m always willing to try.
November 3rd, 2009 - 12:19
I am somewhat on the opposite side of where you are now.
I’ve been one of the tanks in our 25-man group since the days of Gruul and Magtheridon, and before that I was a scrub Fury DPSer in the 40-man days of MC and BWL. Yet I’ve never been a part of a 10-man that’s formed from that same raid group.
When Kara was new and fresh, our raid group formed two 10-mans to tackle it. Because I have tended to level Linedan slower than other people (it’s just how I roll, I’m not a speed-leveler, I like to stop and smell the roses or mine the ore), when those groups formed, I wasn’t ready and so wasn’t included. My wife, a feral druid, also couldn’t get in. After seven weeks of trying, we said the hell with it and hooked up with some friends and started our own 10-man, and let me tell you, the fun of taking a raid group from repeated wipes on the first boss all the way to one-night Kara clears is something I NEVER want to give up.
So enter Lich King. Basically, the first 10 people who were ready to do so fired up a 10-man Naxx run…I wasn’t ready, so I wasn’t there. That 10-man run, still kicking ass 9 months later, progressed through Naxx to Ulduar and is now within striking distance of clearing ToGC-10 (my wife’s in that one). There’s a second 10-man that formed recently that has cleared ToC-10 as far as I’m aware and is poking at ToGC. But because the two tank spots in each of those raids are locked down…I’m the only tank out of four in our 25 that doesn’t have a regular 10 to play in, so I’m getting half or less the Triumph badges they are, and am falling behind gear-wise. (I’m in 2/5 T9, the other three are all in 4/5.)
Can having a tight, well-progressed 10-man group inside a larger raid cause friction? Oh hell yeah. I wasn’t happy at all when our first Naxx 10 started up before our 25 was even ready to go in there. But I had to realize that it was because I simply wasn’t ready at the time. Now it looks like if I want a ToC or Ulduar 10-man, I’mma have to do it myself. I can’t waste time begrudging other people what they want to do on their off nights…that’s their choice. I may not always be happy with it, but I have to suck it up and deal, because there’s no law that says my happiness is their responsibility.
Although, hey, I have to admit, there’s nights where it still stings. Just a little bit.
Linedan´s last blog ..The Raid for the Cure
November 4th, 2009 - 11:44
I’ve been on both sides, so I can definitely understand where you’re coming from. I glossed it over in the actual post, but I was one of those who was left behind when those first Naxx 10 groups formed up. To say that I didn’t handle it graciously would be an understatement.
For what it’s worth, I think you’ve got a great attitude about the whole thing. If I can take the “sting” metaphor and extend it beyond recognition: picking at a scab just leaves a scar — but trouncing bosses? That cures everything!
<3
November 3rd, 2009 - 13:19
This is all lies. You’re purposely trying to hurt our feelings by not including us!
>:D
Elam´s last blog ..Because I heal so much.
November 3rd, 2009 - 13:33
Are you trying to make a cow cry?
November 3rd, 2009 - 15:14
We’ve had this problem as well, back then with the ZA bears. But then it was totally different, as basically most of the guild *wanted* to get the bears, and a group formed to clear ZA on reset day and evolved into a clique trying for the bears.
There wasn’t a lot of drama, but also not much chance to join it, and it was a bit later so when they just had farmed 2 or 3 bears, they were taken out.
So, yes, on the one hand cliques are bad, but in your case at least it sounds like “we’ve been doing this for so long, we never advertised at as a *guild run*, it is a personal thing” – so I don’t see that much of a problem.
Armagon´s last blog ..Shaman: Introduction
November 4th, 2009 - 11:49
That’s exactly how I see it (a personal thing rather than a guild run). Unfortunately, I’ve been on the outside looking in as well as the inside looking out — so I understand both sides well enough to agonize about reconciling them.
I’ve learned my lesson about blaming Blizzard (i.e., don’t do it!), but I do wish that raids scaled in multiples of 5 or 10. Going from 10 to 25 was hard enough when we were in Karazhan and aspiring to Gruul’s Lair, but going backwards from 25 to 10 for hardmodes? UGH.
November 3rd, 2009 - 22:44
I can relate to this at the moment. At the beginning of Wrath, no one in our raid group had really considered doing 10 mans until I put a team together and we worked our way through Naxx, doing all the achievements. And it was great. It was a cohesive social group. We tried not to be snotty about it but it felt like a tight knit group and it was fantastic.
But, come Ulduar, I had RL issues (my father was ill, and after he died I had to organise the funeral etc) so I wasn’t able to be around. They ran some ad hoc 10 mans which seemed to go quite well. Now they’ve forced their own tight knit 10 man group and there’s no room in it for me. And they’ve taken all the good healers who were interested in 10 mans so forming a second group just won’t work if we actually want to do hard modes (sure, we can grab alts and do Ulduar on normal but that’s not what I want.)
November 4th, 2009 - 05:35
We had a similar thing going.
There was a 10man group that regularily put in extra time and effort outside of our 25man raiding to clear U10 hard modes. About 15-18 people rotated through this group, it usually ran after midnight, or late on offraid days.
People saw that it was getting good results and more wanted to be a part of it, so the officers set up 2 dedicated 10man groups, with designated leaders and signups, and the whole thing fell apart within a few weeks.
What happened was quite interesting.
The two groups had slightly different mandates. One group was going to run 3 evenings a week, the other only 2. The 3 evening group got 10-12 signups, the 2 evening group got 20+.
The 3 evening group carried on doing what they had been doing, and spent the odd evening wiping again and again on some things.
The 2 evening group fell apart after people complained about wipes and raid attitude etc etc..
What is interesting is that the 2 evening group had far more potential than the 3 evening group. They had at least as good a selection of tanks and healers, and a better selection of dps, yet they still fell apart.
My main explanation is that it showed the difference between those who are prepared to go the extra distance to get something, and those who wanted to hang on for the ride. Most of the signups for the 3evening group were those who made up the core of the original late night group. Most of the signups for the 2 evening group were those who had not been interested in doing extra raids until it was seen that something could be got from it (u10 ach drake).
As it is now, it has gone back to how it was before. There is a core group, with a few who rotate. Mainly they are the mainstays of our 25man raiding group. We are quite happy to spend days wiping on something.
Thinking about it now, most of this core group are ones who have always been there, from the earliest days of MC. After spending weeks wiping night after night on some vanilla bosses (notably Razorgore(6), Nefarian(5), Huhuran(4-6) and Twins(5)), spending a few days, or even a few id’s wiping on a hard mode feels like it is easy.
November 4th, 2009 - 08:36
This strikes a chord with me and my guild’s experiences for sure. Our guild is strictly 10 man, as most of us just don’t feel like dealing with the coordination of 25 people.
A core 6 of us quickly leveled to 80 and looked around at the rest of our guild. No one was ready to get to lvl 80, let alone run heroics to gear up for raiding. So our two tanks, two healers and two dps got ourselves ready to run Naxx and said “ffffffffff”
and picked up 4 other random people.
Some of those people came and went, others hung out for the long term and became our “perma puggers.” People that we loved to hang out with, that showed the dedication and effort to get crafted gear, run heroics, farm badges, etc. While our other guildies plugged along to 80.
By the time the remainder of our folks hit 80, we were deep into Ulduar.
Then those people decided they wanted to raid. Of course they also had no knowledge, no gear, no skill and no experience with raiding. But boy were they pissed that these “non guildies” were taking their spots. Well guess what…it’s my responsibility to fill a raid with 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 dps each week. I didn’t realize that I was supposed to sit around and wait for you to hit 80 after 2 tiers of content have passed.
There are almost enough of these leftover folks now that could form a second 10 man group and PUG their missing pieces. But no one wants to take that effort. They’d rather just /sigh in Guild chat when they see us running something w/o them.
Oh and did I mention when we actually DID invite them, they died on every. single. fight. in regular ToC 10?
My long, convoluted story was meant to basically say that I do feel your pain and we aren’t even in the 25 man situation! Mat said it best…it seems like a lot of folks say they want to be included but in some ways they don’t want to put in the work and effort that our little core group does. Instead, they expect to hop online at Disneyland and be chauffered through the park.
November 4th, 2009 - 11:34
I’m coming up against that sense of entitlement, too (case in point: Lupius’s comment below), and it can be very frustrating.
I sympathize with your situation: just because it’s on a smaller scale doesn’t mean it’s any easier to deal with! In some ways, I suspect it’s actually harder. If one of my members decides to call it quits, I can replace him — usually in-house, since we now have a small rank of would-be raiders (including a few undergeared Friends & Family members) in addition to our bench. In a pinch, I can do the WoW equivalent of calling someone up to the majors. A smaller guild, even one with an extended family of perma-PuGs, might not have that luxury … so I imagine balancing everyone’s feelings and egos (all while maintaining raid progression!) becomes quite the challenge. It’s not one I envy you. At all.
I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this, but you’re doing the right thing in honoring your commitment to your out-of-guild raiders.
The people who share your tag might not see it, but the tag’s not everything. At the end of the day, it’s a strong sense of commitment and a common purpose that unite a team, and you don’t need to share a guild to share those.
November 4th, 2009 - 09:55
While you realize that the 10 man group “monopolizes” the guild’s tanks, you underestimate the effect it has on the rest of the guild.
By putting all four tank-capable mains into a 10-man raid which only requires two tanks, the message you send out is that you want to DISABLE the rest of the guild from even thinking about running another 10-man raid.
Your proposed solution: having alts and off-spec mains (read: non-*H designated) to tank the 2nd group? Why should the rest of the equally skilled and geared members end up with tanks who are a) seriously behind the gear curve, and b) don’t tank for a living?
On top of that, when a player has to log on an alt tank to help his guild form a 2nd team, while his main has no chance of participating in one, who’s there to determine the fairness of all this?
This is a situation where the guild’s only 4 tanks want to raid 10 man together because they are more friends with each other than with the rest of the guild. To me that is down right selfish.
P.S. It’s funny because most of the said 4 tanks have raid-capable dps alts. This just goes to show how deep the perception of “they don’t want the rest of us to run 10 mans” goes, even though I know that’s not your intention.
November 4th, 2009 - 10:56
Why would we want to “disable” the rest of the guild from running 10-mans? That’s not our intention at all. We want the entire guild to succeed — but at the same time, we don’t feel we owe it to the entire guild to break up a group that’s been running together for well over a year, either.
We certainly didn’t build our team with the intention of monopolizing the guild’s best tanks: in fact, we only took two of them! Not to infringe on Blizzard’s trademark, but our group has always been about the player, not the class. Keep in mind that neither Ouchies nor Moar were main-spec tanks when we started Ulduar (and Moar still isn’t). They picked up enough off-spec gear along the way to become a viable 25-man tanks when the need arose — most of it from our 10-mans.
Frankly, I resent the accusation of “selfishness.” I give more time, effort and money to Surreality than anyone realizes (although Keaton prepaid for Vent and the website for 12 months, so I’m freed from that not-inconsiderable burden through May). For a few hours each week, I want to relax and play with my friends and /not/ have the weight of 25 people’s happiness on my shoulders. How is that selfish?
It seems to me that telling two of our long-time members that they can’t raid with their friends — that they need to set aside months’ worth of personal progression and start all. over. again. with a new group — is selfish … especially since, as a guild, we don’t have the best track record with this kind of thing. Remember, we’ve tried several times in the past to be “selfless” and split our team into two separate cores, but never with more than a week or two’s success before people start flaking out on us. The guys aren’t in a hurry to try it again, and I can’t really blame them.
November 4th, 2009 - 11:39
Like I said in the last line of my comment, I know it’s not your intention to disable the rest of the guild, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is.
I’m all for friends playing together. You certainly deserve it. But when you say “bring the player, not the class,” you must realize that it’s perfectly possible for 2 (or even just 1) of the 4 tanks to bring their dps alts instead of dps offspecs, and make their tanking classes available for a 2nd group.
I know it’s not ideal to have players doubling their “workload”, but it’s still a better compromise than having 2/3 of the guild feeling excluded.
November 4th, 2009 - 12:02
But then their mains are prevented from reaping the rewards of their efforts — which was exactly your complaint about being invited to tank or heal on Laozi instead of DPS on Lupius.
Sure, Keaton could bring his paladin to ToGC10 and save his main for a hypothetical second group. But what happens when that group doesn’t run (because two fifths of the DPS flaked out — again >.<) or just spends the same two weeks wiping on Faction Champions that the first group did?
Personally, I would do it. Guild morale is more important to me than my own gear or personal progression. But I don’t know how to ask someone /else/ to do it. I think it’s selfish and unfair.
As a whole, the guild’s focus is on 25-man raids. Making sure those happen is my responsibility. Nabbing everyone a Rusted Protodrake? Not so much.
For the record, I tried to run an open invite, hardmode Ulduar last night. I had a main spec tank and three main spec healers (two of whom have tanking alts who overgear the content). 18 people online and guess what I couldn’t come up with?
Yep, DPS.
November 4th, 2009 - 14:44
For the most part you are right about people wanting to go for a joy ride and get carried through hard modes once they are in farm status by a dedicated few. Problem with that is that human beings are naturally envious of others. So people that aren’t taken part in all the fun feel un-wanted or undervalued compare to others. But the fact is that most would fail to pull their own weight and this is true for most guilds except end-game guilds that only recruit good players to being with so no matter who you take they would pick up the fights quickly. Also you are understating the current status of your guild. To be frank no casual guild could run time ZA runs. For one to clear ZA prior to the nerf one needed to have gear that more or less exceeded the gear available at ZA. Meaning that maybe one or two items were upgrades while the most went straight to DE. Most raiders clearing timed ZA runs were in high TK/SSC and low Hijal/BT. Casual guilds never got to hyjal, and let alone ever do timed ZA runs XD.
Note: Don’t listen to the QQ’s on off nights you can do whatever one wants, including the GM of a guild. If they are so poised to run with you guys they will show up everyweek and post their availability and once a spot open up they would get in and slowly but surely start taking the place of someone who is slacking in attendance(there is always one). Their logic is equally as stupid if a GM told people that they needed to attend 10mans on off-nights, then it wouldn’t be a off-night.
November 4th, 2009 - 15:01
I’m hoping to be able to help with this a little after exams are all over my own weekends will still be occupied with work (which equates to your Fri/Sat) so they’ll be out regardless.
But the other days I’ll be available again, and have Nathin, prot warrior who was my main for a long time before joining you guys to provide a Tree again as needed. It’d probably suit me just fine to keep going to 25s as healer (if still needed by then!) and help out with the 10’s side of thing as a pretty well geared tank.
Of course, would still need one other. But that’s better than needing both, rite?
Naithin´s last blog ..NaNoWriMo Begins Today
November 5th, 2009 - 14:02
Just an outside observation, but I’ve come to realize that being in a position of responsibility (GM, manager, officer, parent, whatever) oftentimes puts you in a position where you have to do things that are unfair for you.
Sure, you have the right to do whatever you want, but being “in charge” means that it might be perceived as being a little “tacky”. Sure, it’s not “fair”, but that’s the price you pay being the boss.
Also, remember that if your focus truly is:
“Surreality is a 25-man raiding guild. Period. Dot.”
then you shouldn’t have a problem with axing the 10 man stuff if needed. I guess it’s about priorities. Do you want to run a drama free 25-man, or do you want to have fun? Sometimes, unfortunately, you can’t do both…
Good luck…
November 5th, 2009 - 14:17
Hmmm, it’s hard to say which side of the issue I’m on since I can see valid arguments for both sides. As a raid leader myself, I can certainly understand the issues you have to deal with in terms of people bitching about not getting into 10-man hard mode groups.
Luckily, I don’t have the problem you’ve got since my guild is relatively newer (we started seriously raiding with new people at the beginning of WotLK although many of us have been together off-and-on in this game since vanilla) guild. Our problem is that too many people want in on the hard modes and while we have more than enough people for one 10-man group, often we don’t have enough for two.
Taking three main-spec tanks seems a bit strange though considering there isn’t any 10-man content in the game (currently) that requires more than two.
I also think your guild needs to get over the thing with alts though. Many people play their alts just as well as they play their mains. I play an enhance shaman with a death knight alt and I’m part of two 10-man groups and, actually, two 25-man groups since our guild alts pug 25-man content on off-nights. Maybe tell people to be better at their alts? Is Elam terrible as a hunter?
My only suggestion is to probably just to be more organized about it and have sign-ups for 10-man groups so you know who will be online and what kind of groups you can put together. You seem to be reasonable and if you have everything you need for a second group, two of your four tanks could probably lead it.
November 5th, 2009 - 14:54
I can see both sides of this. Being in a 10-man team, getting that close-knit, cohesive (almost hive) mind can be really difficult. Once you do get it, you want to keep it–there’s not much better in the game than knowing the people you’re playing with so well that you can basically anticipate what one of those members will do in any given situation.
It’s also rather unfair to ask people to to dissolve such tight bonds to allow others in, particularly if it’s been tried before and failed.
The problem that I had (as a healer) with a former guild’s “offnight” 10s achievement groups was that they DID rotate people in… alts of mains in the group that already had the achievements. Not other mains that were interested and willing to bust their butts for the achievements, and not alts that were particularly well-geared either.
We got the same static from that group of 10 (which included our sole raid leader and the GM). “Form your own group”… but when we did (I tried for multiple weeks to get interest)… they’d poach some of our best-geared players as “just in case” bench sitters for their group! We were the 2-3 interested mains that were consistently not getting invited (funnily enough, the two females that were NOT the GM and our newest addition to the raid team), stuck with having to use F&F members that didn’t want to do hardmodes/achievements, were poorly geared, and consistently flaked on us.
We couldn’t get any of the “main” group to bring their alts in to help with group make-up and consistency either, so having them poach the solid performers we’d managed to snag was basically a slap in the face saying “we don’t want you to be successful, we only care about this core group getting achievements and gear and learning the fights.”
It doesn’t appear that you guys are doing that–but if a lot of the strong leaders are in your 10s group, then it could be that your other raiders are Indians, not Chiefs, and have very little desire to lead a group even if they’re very interested in actually working on the achievements. Maybe you could try splitting that core for a few weeks. Get sign ups. See if they show up and are willing to work. If they are… is your group prepared to stay split to help them achieve those goals? If not, then you’ve given them visible opportunity and they’ve proven through their actions that they’re not willing to work for it… and you can go back to your current make-up with light hearts, knowing that you TRIED to help them out.
November 5th, 2009 - 15:36
We’re scrubbier than you, but my guild has had a very similar problem. In the end, we(the 10) basically just decided that our enjoyment of this game (waning though it is) is still more important than handing gear out to other people.
Your offnights are your time. Do whatever the hell you want, as long as you’re polite about it, and anyone who wants to ride the Loot rain to Purpleville can find a DPS warrior/ feral druid/ DK or Pally to come tank for them. It’s not hard with dual spec and if your guild only has 3 main specc’d tanks, there’s no reason that other tank-capable people can’t have a tank set ready for 10s.
November 6th, 2009 - 07:29
Loot Train to Purpleville is officially my new favorite phrase.
November 5th, 2009 - 21:54
My guild started seriously doing 10mans with the release of Ulduar it found itself in a bit of an odd positon. We had 25 raiders who wanted to do 10mans, and thusly we split into 3 groups. (We do have spare raiders, but by coincidence the number of raiders we have extra was equal to the number of raiders who didn’t want to do 10mans!)
You had one group for the officers. One group for the “Core” raiders + a friend of the groups leader.
Then the third group, where I ended up, which consisted of 6 people, 1 healer, the guilds off-off tank (ie: DPS druid with some tank gear) and 4 physical dps (1 who changed their offspec to prot to tank), and pugging out the remaining 2 healer spots and 2 dps.
Oddly enough, rather than wallow in the self pity that we didn’t have ‘the best’ players in the guild, we just pushed through it. Sure, we spent a month or two failing pretty hard with a constant stream of pugs flowing through, but eventually we found some good, consistant players. Once we finally hit our stride, it was amazing. We ended up being the first group in the guild to get Champion of Ulduar, kill Algalon, and get server first He Feeds on Your Tears and Tribute to Insanity.
Though we missed guild first Glory of the Ulduar raider just because firefighter was a tough fight to learn for a group with no caster dps or shammies.. There really isn’t a phase in that fight where heroism wouldn’t be amazing
Admittedly, the results vary with this kind of stuff, and it helped in a way that there were two other guild groups, everyone just stuck to their group. No one bothered ‘poaching’ because there were literally no spares, and well.. its not fun to be picked last. When there are 20 spots open and 25 raiders and you’re one of the guys left out, well.. you just don’t feel any particular sense of obligation to the raids that ditched you.
Anyways, rambling a bit. Bottom line: Make Lemonade. Then splash it in the eyes of those who wronged you.
November 6th, 2009 - 07:30
“Make Lemonade. Then splash it in the eyes of those who wronged you.”
I spoke too soon. This is equally amazing!
November 6th, 2009 - 13:04
loot train to purpleville still rocks my socks.
Hi guys, i just hit your website from wow.com i think. I’m a casual raider. I’m also raid leader, ex-guild master, and officer of my 10man strict guild.
“Loot train to purpleville” is only half the problem. Sadly, people aren’t willing to put any effort into real raiding.
On our progression group, half the people can fill two roles, 2 people have filled 3 roles in a single raid. if a player for a role is missing, or a certain buff would benefit the raid for an encounter, or a kiter is needed, people will hop on an alt if need be, just to get things done (half the raiders have alts and geared VERY closely as well as the mains on our progression group) . Half our main core group can be tank/heals or tank/dps or heal/dps. However we usually raid 8-9 and any other guildie/pug. Since we are still a casual raid 10man strict guild and sometimes RL doesn’t allow for everyone to be online.
Back in Kara we started facing these problems you now face. Back then it was loot train to purpleville. We recruited, and made a second kara group splitting our core raid team. A group would fail, or sometimes both.
When we managed to get enough people for 25mans, the most we managed back then (VERY CASUAL) was gruul and mags.
We never downed a single SSC boss.
But we did ZA. full clears. 45seconds shy of a timed run (with t4 and 2 – 3pieces of badge gear). Everyone wanted in on that.
Everyone wants in on progression group’s raids. Why? Because they raid with people who tried 40 different strats until they found out what worked best for them. But the group tried 40 different ones. Some failed. some worked, even if just barely. But running with a group like this means things will turn out all right and encounters will be beat, usually within 1 or 2 wipes. Sometimes it takes weird tactics like 1 heals or 3 tanks, or 1 tank and 2 heals, or a dps tanking, Kiters, ETC.
But as fate would have it, more people started playing. Friends and family. Now we are deep into ulduar and doing hardmodes and starting on togc. And new 80s, and medium (not so recent 80s, maybe ilvl 200-213 geared) 80s all want to raid with us. Now its breeze me thru hardmodes on the CarryMe Bus to show off my new titles/mounts. (like that time we did a nax10 for the new 80s, none showed up and we did 8man undying…)
So we started a second raid group, with alts of the progression group as backup, but the core of the group to be formed by the new and medium 80s. We did this so the new raiders would understand the hardships of raiding and missing people for certain roles, and wiping. Of 5 raids we have scheduled (to benefit the most of the new and medium 80s), we ended up pugging, with only 1 or 2 of the new guys assisting. This shows a huge lack of commitment. There are enough players to make a second raid group, but they are too lazy to try and find a schedule that works for the most of them, or even organize anything.
Our situation is different, but in essence it is the same. You have enough people for 25man raids and some bench/backup. Commitment means getting a dual spec. And doing some heroics and dailys to get a couple of t9, t8, etc. It also means that the first couple of weeks your group will wipe. A lot. But if people commit things start happening. The group grows more united, and commited to being there and reading and trying new strats to get things done. However it’s always easier to follow others than it is to pave a road for others to follow. If you want it, go for it, work for it. don’t expect others to carry you through or even do all the hard work for ya.
TL;DR:
If you want to be part of a 10man raid on offnights. COMMIT to it. Get a dual spec. Get some gear for the offspec. Fill up those last spots with people who want to get things done. Organize stuff, don’t expect your officers/leaders to do everything for you. And remember its an offnight, OFF-night. If you want 10man hardmode achievements, work for it. It isn’t until one has been raid leader, that one can really understand the burden leadership enthralls. Don’t expect your guild leaders to work for you on offnights.
Isma´s last blog ..Bon voyage