How do you manage your bench?
As you might have heard, we've been recruiting. (No, this isn't another shameless plug! Unless you happen to be a critchicken, we're done for now.)
My goal this time around wasn't to recruit to fill raids; it was to recruit to fill raids and maintain a small bench.
This is a completely new model for us. In the past, we've run with a "core raid" of anywhere from 18 to 20 players, supported by a much larger pool of casuals. It wasn't unusual for our roster to change from night to night — and sometimes even from hour to hour — depending upon who of our many casual raiders was available.
This approach saw us through substantially all of The Burning Crusade. We were solidly middle-of-the-road when it came to progression (our reliance upon our casual raiders meant that we farmed content for much longer than was ideal), but at the height of the casual/hardcore feud, we managed to fold both approaches to raiding into one uniquely successful guild. Our core raiders enjoyed guaranteed raid spots and the knowledge that they could take the occasional night off without thwarting progression, and our casual raiders had the opportunity to experience T6 content at a time that most truly casual players were relegated to farming Karazhan and PuGing Gruul's Lair. It was a win-win situation.
Needless to say, the Wrath of the Lich King rendered our entire model obsolete. Our casual players — who I had always considered a part of our extended family — no longer needed us to see content, and over time those who didn't step up to core eventually left the guild to play with real life friends and family.
I was reflecting on this the other night when something occured to me that could almost be called an epiphany:
In order to be successful in the new end-game, we have to change the way we manage our bench.
In TBC, if we wait-listed a player, it was most likely a casual raider who understood that second priority on invites was the price she paid for the flexibility to raid sans attendance requirements.
In WotLK, with the non-heroic versions of even the highest-end raid content easily PuGable, there is no incentive for a player like this to remain in a guild like Surreality (other than the strength of our community, of course, which I still maintain is what has kept us together at a time that many raiding guilds are falling apart).
The simple fact is that we can no longer rely on an extended roster of casual raiders who are content to fill in on an as-needed, as-available basis. By and large, these players no longer exist. In the current end-game, everyone who is capable, committed and consistently available needs to have the same opportunity to raid. This means setting up some kind of rotation rather than continuing to operate on a strict priority system that is no longer relevant.
The question now is, how do we do it?
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October 15th, 2009 - 11:05
Rockin’ the new mace and shield, I see =)
…but I’ve no idea how to answer the question posed. To attempt to manage (potentially) more players who want to raid than there are available spots is not something I envy – that much is certain. Spots for the casual will virtually disappear, I would wager. I’ll attempt to ramble……….
Rotation – between fights or between nights? My prior experience in a truly hardcore raiding guild (read: top 50-ish US) was that of being swapped in and out as requirements dictated differing tank/DPS/healer allocation in the same night. The secondary specs were often used for gimmicky (see: General Vezax hard mode) specs or PvP, rather than tuly different off-spec roles; rather than have someone in the raid switch specs/gear, someone whose main spec WAS the desired role would step in. I was Holy PvE, and Holy alternate PvE or PvP – far more often than I carried Holy/Ret, or (as I am now) Resto/Balance. I guess my point is having a second PvE spec of a different role doesn’t necessarily mean you just switch specs and stay – that’s what the ‘bench’ is for.
Example (though rather simplistic and *cough* archaic): The raid is in Naxxramas and currently carrying one shadow priest. They arrive at Instructor Razuvious. WTB second shadow priest NAO! First, you go to the bench to find a main spec SP; if none, only THEN does a Disc or Holy priest turn on their shadow off-spec.
I’ve never sat in the “war room” as Surreality raid comps are decided on a nightly basis, so I have no knowledge of the decision-making process and the factors that are considered. But I suspect nights of LOLWUT?6! shaman on progression attempts would be VERY infrequent if there is a robust bench (and therefore, ‘core’ roster).
(I’m not complaining – it’s just that I’d never… EVER… seen 6 shaman in a raid before last night. 6 paladins, yes, because they are facerollable – but not 6 shaman.)
Forreststump´s last blog ..Progression Raid Is Progression
October 15th, 2009 - 11:39
I /love/ my new mace and shield. If polygamy were legal in Arizona, I would totally marry them. <3
Um, yeah. Raid slotting at this point is still mostly a matter of "invite whoever's online and /pray that we end up with at least three tanks, five healers and Azargoth." But now that we've swung the other way and have 30+ people online at raid time, we can start to strategize.
I definitely don't want to take the super-hardcore approach (I still believe that people > progression, provided that those people are also capable of progression), but I do think that maintaining a bench will be a key to filling raids consistently. Not only will it give us the ability to raid even in those “Oh shit! Malamo is stuck in traffic, Dio is working overtime and Neville just turned into a pumpkin!” situations, but (as Ouchies pointed out) the increased competition for raid spots could prove a powerful incentive to improvement for those raiders who aren’t performing to the full of their potential.
I’m not sure yet, but I’m kind of thinking of some kind of rotation whereby the role leads (or, more realistically, me ;.;) keep(s) track of what everyone needs off of which bosses and — given current PR standings — who is likely to recieve what they need if it does drop. We could then attempt to balance that with class composition and rank/skill considerations to create each night’s roster, and then make substitutions for encounters as needed. To ensure that no one becomes a permanent benchwarmer, we could hand out “raid free cards” (i.e., if you’re waitlisted one night, you’re guaranteed a spot the following night).
Of course, we’d still have to take into consideration performance. If we have three warlocks, and two of them consistently hit 6.5K DPS and one struggles to break 5K, we should probably bench the one doing 5K. But that line of thinking brings us back to rank priority and the distinction between core raiders and raiders, which should probably evolve to encompass more than just average attendance and seniority …
D: My brain hurts.
Also, I think we were running seven shamans at one point in Mount Hyjal. A’course, obvious solution is obvious: make Elam reroll chicken. SQUAWK.
October 15th, 2009 - 13:06
Going off of your people>progression approach, then maybe you could look at the fights you have coming up that night, and work around the roster before the raid. Talk to the folks that you know have spots that can rotate in (based on what the needs of the fight are) and see how amenable they are to rotating out (for folks that have different specs for another fight later on in the night). I know it requires a bit more coordination of bodies, but as long as you have people willing to go down the road, it should be a non-issue.
Also, maybe you could offer incentives to those that would sit out. I don’t know the intricacies of your points system (since I’ve never used anything but DKP at it’s creation – ugh…), but maybe there’s something you can figure out to make it ok to be a standby.
This can be a sticky issue, and hopefully you can talk to your raiders to figure out what people would like to try.
lordofthefries´s last blog ..lordofthefries: @kelceycasson nah nothing so glorious.
October 15th, 2009 - 13:17
Ok, I just read your response to Naithin’s comment… yeah, that sounds like a lot of work, lol… There’s got to be a better way to approach this topic.
lordofthefries´s last blog ..lordofthefries: @kelceycasson nah nothing so glorious.
October 15th, 2009 - 13:19
I like Jong’s approach, lol. “Who wants to play catch with an old Vodoo Skull in Dalaran while we roflstomp this fight so Elam can stop gnawing on the bench for fear that some rogue will ninja his mace (again)?” “Okay, awesome. Have some free EP and a cookie.”
October 15th, 2009 - 14:11
I agree that there must be a way involving less work.
I sort of came to this conclusion as I was writing it up in the first place, but had one of those, ‘….Yep’ moments when I found myself pondering picking up LUA (finally) and seeing if I couldn’t whack out a WoW addon for us to use for this purpose.
Naithin´s last blog ..Of Tweets, Music and Other Offtopic Stuffs
October 15th, 2009 - 13:27
“…the increased competition for raid spots could prove a powerful incentive to improvement for those raiders who aren’t performing to the full of their potential.”
^ This.
It’s why I am constantly scrutinizing the HPS and trying to determine if the drop off this week is me, or just the raid taking less damage overall.
Forreststump´s last blog ..Trial Account Is For… Trials.
October 15th, 2009 - 13:37
Remember we had 13/25 people rolling on the protector token in BT?
October 15th, 2009 - 13:38
While Vanqs were going to second and third offspecs? Yep.
October 15th, 2009 - 11:28
We over-recruit for “core raid” positions. On a given raid night, we have anywhere between 27-32 raiders. We take turns sitting out for each other.
jong´s last blog ..OH HAI
October 15th, 2009 - 11:46
How do you decide who sits out on any given night? I haven’t benched any of my core raiders yet and I’m already getting pushback of the “I won’t rotate. Period.” variety.
Maybe we just need to go back to kindergarten and l2take turns.
October 15th, 2009 - 12:12
The RL simply asks for volunteers.
jong´s last blog ..You Know I Used to be a Warlock
October 15th, 2009 - 12:16
While it has the most overheard from the raid leaders and officers point of view, I think the ideal method would be to make people maintain a list of what they want from any given boss in current progression content, and rank it in terms of ‘OMGZIMUSTHASITZ’ through to ‘Meh. It’s an upgrade’. Then as you mentioned, try to prioritise based on current EP/GP who would have the best chance of actually getting it.
Of course, those sitting out need to be able to earn EP provided they truly are sitting out ready to go, and not off doing other stuff they can’t break away from at a moments notice. The system for that though already seems to be in place.
Now, also ideally, people would be willing and onboard to go with such a plan. Even if it had to be incentivised a little. (i.e., 3 of our 6 shamans want the same item at an OMGZ level, 2 of them obviously aren’t going to get it. If they’re made to sit so that other classes/specs get in a chance for their own, different, OMGZ item, perhaps they get a bonus alotment of EP, or a set % GP reduction.)
Apart from the limits of Tank/Healer requirements, we should use the sitting out rotation to optimise raid comp. We obviously don’t need to. It should be used purely for the increased chances of SOMEONE getting an OMGZ item.
That is the *ideal*… But.. It really is a massive load to put onto the shoulders of the raid lead, officers, and Guild Lead types. Given that, it may simply be necessary to adopt some lesser solution, so that ya’ll don’t go nuts, burn out within a couple of weeks, flip everyone the finger, and log off for good. We’d rather a suboptimal solution than that, I assure you.
Naithin´s last blog ..Of Tweets, Music and Other Offtopic Stuffs
October 15th, 2009 - 12:58
That could be fairly easily accomplished in an Excel spreadsheet, I think. People would only need to create a list once per tier; I could maintain it from there. And players who don’t bother to submit lists would just default to “meh” status for each boss.
So, talking it through…
We have 25 players in the raid and 6 on the bench. We’re about to do Anub’arak. I filter the master list to show all raiders online and sort by status. Four players in the raid are “stick a fork in me done” status on the last boss. That means I can sub at least these four out for players on the bench — class composition permitting, of course.
OK, one of the four is the MT. We need all three tanks so he stays. That makes a minimum of three possible openings: two healers and a mage no one likes because he bakes stale cookies.
So. On the bench, we have two healers and two DPS casters who are OMGZ status for the sexy, sexy mace. Both casters are also OMGZ for a trophy — and since we’re nearing the end of the tier those are starting to go to off-specs in some raids, depending upon who’s around. Oh, Elam’s on the bench too because he didn’t finish his paper before the raid.
Hmm, three open spots. Four players on the bench.
I look at my spreadsheet and decide to take: (1) the healer who is top PR (because it’s his turn for the mace), (2) the DPS caster who is below the healer for the mace but is OMGZ status for a trophy and next in line for that, and (3) Elam, since he wants some enhancement thingie no one else cares about and would win by default.
Then I find someone in the raid who is “meh, it’s an upgrade” status for another item, but too low in PR to actually win it. I sub him out for the second benched caster who needs (and would likely win) the trophy.
… That sounds like a lot of work. And pressure, because if I don’t do it fast, people will start to complain about downtime. But I /could/ do it. I am, after all, the girl who takes practice LSAT’s for fun.
Of course, raid composition > *.
October 15th, 2009 - 13:28
Actually *cough* at least on my part, I had a typo in there which this time significantly changed what I meant to say. I meant to say:
Other than for Tank/Healer requirements, we should *NOT* use it to balance for raid comp.
Possible exception is if we honestly believe it’d make the difference between wiping the rest of the night or actually progressing a boss in new content (Icecrown, I r lookin at choo).
But yeah, you raise another significant issue with this. It isn’t just an overhead of management time, but there would be additional time between boss pulls as well, subbing people in and out like this. Only real way to be able to counter that would to have it preplanned who was doing what.
Meaning people would have to be stellarly amazing at signing up to raids they plan on being there for, as well as being in vent or at least paying attention to guild so that they know when to haul ass over to the raid portal ready to pop in.
If they don’t.. TOUGH!
I don’t see it really working any other way.
Naithin´s last blog ..Of Tweets, Music and Other Offtopic Stuffs
October 15th, 2009 - 13:37
What would be the logic for /not/ using it to optimize raid comp? Obviously, there’s more flexibility on farm content, but I can’t think of very many circumstances in which I wouldn’t trade a second elemental shaman for a moonkin or a fifth rogue for an enhancement shaman.
October 15th, 2009 - 14:05
Perhaps should rephrase it a little less absolutist. I mean that optimising raid comp shouldn’t come before all other considerations. Getting as many OMGZ shots in a single kill should be.
That said, raid comp optimisation will likely – at least to some degree – follow naturally from that. We already know that if 3 shamans want the exact same item, only one of them is going to be able to win it, so it would just make sense to switch one or both of the other two out for people wanting different items.
All I meant to say is that we shouldn’t ever have the situation where (non tank/healer requirement) raid comp considerations mean someone who has an OMGZ item from the current boss has to sit out, when there is no-one else with that item at the same level of desire.
Does that make more sense?
Naithin´s last blog ..Of Tweets, Music and Other Offtopic Stuffs
October 15th, 2009 - 14:09
It does, thanks.
October 15th, 2009 - 14:25
Ugh, Less than Threeing you ate me response. Silly HTML tags. It didn’t even have a close! It should not have tried to parse it! Anyways. Yes,
Less than Three.
It’s probably moot anyway though, as I think that there really is just too much overhead for this plan to be practical over the long term.
Also, even if we were to give it a shot, I think that trying to balance it for any more than a single item per boss would be a nightmare. So might have to just have people pick the one item they MOST want from any given encounter, and allow them to update if they either get that drop, or another drop which changes their minds.
Naithin´s last blog ..Of Tweets, Music and Other Offtopic Stuffs